This happens to be a big issue for liberals and conservatives alike, because if the baker wins, then conservatives get a big victory in buisness applications of religious beliefs by being able to deny people if their religious beliefs intrude the beliefs of the seller.. If the gay men win, the liberals take a big victory in forcing buisnesses to do their job and not to deny service based on other peoples beliefs, even if it intrudes on the seller. Where do you stand, where do you think SCOTUS stands?
A good debate is not judged by bias, but in the context of the debate, where objectivity is key and rationale prevalent.
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Boring.
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The baker will win for artistic reasoning. You can't make a gay baker create a cake with religious symbols if they choose not to make it. You can't make a Jewish baker paint a swastika painting.
If they simply denied them any cake that they would make or sell to anyone else, that'd be discrimination. In this case, the baker did offer to make them any cake that didn't go against his beliefs.
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I'd venture to guess that the baker has no fear of gay people.
Is it Naziaphobic if a Jew won't bake a Nazi cake?
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With Darwinism there are no victims. Only surviving or dying. Objective morality is a religious concept. Which religion are you referencing to objectively define who or what "being a victim" is?
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I'm protecting the gays with my position so that no one can force gay bakers to make cakes that say "marriage is between a man and a woman"...
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Whatever you say. It's funny sure, but a good argument? Not at all.
Analogies only work if you then reapply the severity of your analogy to the real thing. Your analogy is flawed as the importance of what you're enforcing isn't the same as enforcing gay rights.
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The concept "gay rights" insinuates that homosexuals aren't humans like the rest of us. I supporthuman rights. And human rights advocate that you can't force a gayor Christian baker to create something they don't offer to anyone else. I can't demand Walmart sell me a car, seeing they choose not to sell cars to anyone. Pretty simple logic.
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The court case doesn't involve price. It involves the rejection to put something on a cake.
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It is about the lesser negative outcome... Taking his side or the gay couple's... What does it signify? What does it achieve?
Best to side with the gay couple, the uproar from angry homophobes is easier to silence on social media than the uproar from angry homosexuals.
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Yes there is. You start forcing people to offer services that they don't offer, and you can force ANYONE to do ANYTHING.
Dave Rubin, Milo Yianopoulos, and Peter Thiel, all gay, agree.
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Point proven. The wiser choice is to side AGAINST the weaker side who have less reason to support them and that side is the homophobe's side. Simple as that.
I don't personally mind either way because I adapt to the system of politics rather than believing that my vote matters. Not many live as selfish and adaptable as me.
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So if the KKK or ISIS, as vast minorities couldn't get a klan or jihadi cake baked, I should side with them? That's pretty tortured logic.
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@someone234
Not actually. I've seen the interviews and the coverage. He refused to put a male on male plastic figurine on top. He then offered them any of the other cakes that he provided.
And think, how easy would it have been to have gone to another baker or put the figurine on themselves. Maybe you should stop thinking in absolutes...
The reality is that the only reason there was a problem is they made it into a problem.
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This is about what we do from here on out.
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What to do from here on out? Make the law crystal clear on what a baker can or cannot do.
Back to the debate topic. Seeing it's a majority Conservative Supreme Court, I'd guess that the final judgement will be a Conservative judgement.
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There is no gray area, at least, not in the way you suggest. Artistic expression is not sufficient grounds to treat homosexuals as second class citizens. Plus, the baker never discussed anything artistic - he refused to make a cake he offers to the public because these gentlemen were gay.
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I doubt it. The Supreme Court justices are in their positions for life. The average man isn't affected by social matters but by fiscal matters. If the tax reform is passed, it gets more money in peoples' pockets, and the penalty for not having insurance will be gone. That's what affects most peoples' lives.
I have no idea who the Democrat candidate will even be to try and predict a 2 election win streak.
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Actually he did offer them any cake that didn't support homosexuality.
He didn't deny them because of what they were, but because of what they wanted him to create.
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Race, religion, familial status, and, yes, sexual orientation are protected classes. Denying services to a person from any of these groups is illegal.
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Thats nonsensical. Let's say I make wooden pens, but refuse to make one for a gay couple because they intend to use it for their wedding registry. I have refused them service because of their homosexuality. It doesn't matter if I then offer to make them a toy box, I've already established my full range of services are not available to them.
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You see homosexuals asking for services provided to heterosexuals as an attack on beliefs and Christians subjected to such actions as victims. This is a twisted view. Gays refused any service (available to anyone else) because of their homosexuality are liberated from (some) of their liberty. They are the true victims.
Fundamentalists have every right to their beliefs, but they do not have the right to force their beliefs on society.
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However, PLEASE define service, because the baker did not deny service, as in the selling of goods to any person, he denied them his time and effort into making something that through his labor, he would be shown to condone.
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I don't think it is reasonable to force homosexuals to use only businesses which choose to serve them. Let's use race as an analogy for homosexuality (skin color and homosexuality are not generally chosen). Is it reasonable to suggest members of a specific race could have "gone to any other place"? Of course not. Plus, there is no guarantee 'any other place' would be any better.
The baker offers a list of services. This list should be the same for every person that walks into his place. If it isn't then he is denying services.
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Your analogy above does not follow, as race and homosexuality are two different things. Heck, what if the gays were Hispanic or Black, would it matter? No, because they are gay, meaning that it is not on account of race, it is on account of beliefs.
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I'm not following your objection to my race analogy. Neither race nor homosexuality are generally chosen, so to deny services for either reason is equivalently justified or equivalently discriminatory. If you disagree, please explain why it would be acceptable to refuse service on the basis of homosexuality and not race.
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Here is why you can deny homosexuals and not race. The difference is that one is a belief where the other is empirical. While homosexuality is the belief that 2 men can be married, this can change as it is a belief about two people, and while the marriage can occur, one can believe in heterosexuality. However, race is something that can not be changed. I am white, but I can not believe that I am black because the obvious evidence shows that I am not! Therefore, because one is empirical and the other a belief, you can deny homosexuals on the account that one is based off of a belief that the baker doesn't agree with versus race, which would be descrimination as it is not a belief.
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Before I respond to your justification I'd like to ask a question - Do you think homosexuality is a choice? I mean, you're calling it a belief, and I'm sure individuals that are gay believe they are gay just like individuals believe they are of a certain race. However, individuals don't become gay or (say) Caucasian because they believe it. That is simply who they are.
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Everyone is completely ignoring @WilliamSchulz central point.
The gay couple did not ask for a service that the baker provides to anyone except homosexuals. They asked for a service that the baker does not offer to anyone.
They asked "can we buy product A?"
He replied, "no, product A is not something I sell. I do have products C through F, if you would like?"
The baker was not discriminating against the gay couple, he was discriminating against a particular service. He would deny that service to anyone regardless of their views on the subject. And the services he DOES provide are available to anyone regardless of their views on the subject.
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If that same baker doesn't make crepes, can I sue him for being racist against the French?
Should every professional baker be legally required to offer any service that any baker could ever provide?
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Do not construe my arguments to be support for CADA. I personally do not care about CADA; I simply wish to correct false information pertaining to such an important case.
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Ok, if @WilliamSchulz had the facts wrong, and he was refusing any service because they were gay, then that's different.
I still think he should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason. He's not a slave.
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The baker can actually refuse service to anyone...he just cant do it for reasons related to protected classes.
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@SkepticalOne
How can a court discern his reasoning without him testifying against himself?
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Good question, but in this case the baker was explicit in his rejection.
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